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	<title>Comments on: A Library is a Vault for Locking Up Books</title>
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	<link>http://www.movingtofreedom.org/2007/06/24/google-book-search-university-library-deal/</link>
	<description>free software, free culture, free association</description>
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		<title>By: Scott Carpenter</title>
		<link>http://www.movingtofreedom.org/2007/06/24/google-book-search-university-library-deal/comment-page-1/#comment-2697</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Carpenter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jun 2007 01:37:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.movingtofreedom.org/2007/06/24/google-book-search-university-library-deal/#comment-2697</guid>
		<description>I disagree -- I think there would be plenty of publication without copyright.  A lot of it wouldn&#039;t be very good, but that&#039;s no different than today.

Information/knowledge/expression/data/ideas/what-have-you.  In a digital world, I&#039;d like to see them all be freely copyable.  We&#039;re entering an age of abundance, where everyone can have something just by virtue of it having been produced once.

But the key is how to we create the incentives for that production, right?  I wouldn&#039;t necessarily do away with copyright, but I&#039;d drastically reduce the term of it.  I think people will create the same works for a twenty year term as they will for a life plus fifty term.  (Although 20 years is still too long.)

Another important point is that the genie is out of the bottle.  In a free world, with machines that are designed at a low-level to copy bits, we&#039;re not going to be able to effectively enforce copyright.  Not unless we sacrifice a lot of freedom and suffer intrusive measures.

Anyway, I&#039;ve already thrown out many more rambling words written in response -- your comments deserve a better response than I have time to write at the moment.  I&#039;d like to state my position more coherently, but that will have to wait for another day.  (Or never, since I&#039;m not an especially disciplined thinker on these issues!) :-)

Finally, I&#039;ll defer to http://www.questioncopyright.org as a place for better articulation of concerns around copyright.

And finally x2, just to be clear, I wouldn&#039;t advocate people break the law and make illegal copies.  People should honor copyright.  Two licenses that I support strongly -- the GPL and Creative Commons -- rely on it.   However, I don&#039;t want to see fair use trampled either, and that is what I think Google&#039;s book search should be considered as.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I disagree -- I think there would be plenty of publication without copyright.  A lot of it wouldn't be very good, but that's no different than today.</p>
<p>Information/knowledge/expression/data/ideas/what-have-you.  In a digital world, I'd like to see them all be freely copyable.  We're entering an age of abundance, where everyone can have something just by virtue of it having been produced once.</p>
<p>But the key is how to we create the incentives for that production, right?  I wouldn't necessarily do away with copyright, but I'd drastically reduce the term of it.  I think people will create the same works for a twenty year term as they will for a life plus fifty term.  (Although 20 years is still too long.)</p>
<p>Another important point is that the genie is out of the bottle.  In a free world, with machines that are designed at a low-level to copy bits, we're not going to be able to effectively enforce copyright.  Not unless we sacrifice a lot of freedom and suffer intrusive measures.</p>
<p>Anyway, I've already thrown out many more rambling words written in response -- your comments deserve a better response than I have time to write at the moment.  I'd like to state my position more coherently, but that will have to wait for another day.  (Or never, since I'm not an especially disciplined thinker on these issues!) :-)</p>
<p>Finally, I'll defer to <a href="http://www.questioncopyright.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.questioncopyright.org</a> as a place for better articulation of concerns around copyright.</p>
<p>And finally x2, just to be clear, I wouldn't advocate people break the law and make illegal copies.  People should honor copyright.  Two licenses that I support strongly -- the GPL and Creative Commons -- rely on it.   However, I don't want to see fair use trampled either, and that is what I think Google's book search should be considered as.</p>
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		<title>By: My post copyrighted</title>
		<link>http://www.movingtofreedom.org/2007/06/24/google-book-search-university-library-deal/comment-page-1/#comment-2689</link>
		<dc:creator>My post copyrighted</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jun 2007 15:39:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.movingtofreedom.org/2007/06/24/google-book-search-university-library-deal/#comment-2689</guid>
		<description>Information itself is not protected by copyright, so that isn&#039;t the issue.  

Books represent the tangible expression of thought, which is subject to copyright protection.  Anti-copyright advocates often confuse information with expression.  Is a biography of John Adams merely information?  No, it is the author&#039;s creative interpretation of information.  

Nobody should own information.  But it is bad to duplicate expression without license, because the person doing the duplicating didn&#039;t create it and doesn&#039;t own it.  

If you have bought a book, you have purchased a licensed duplicate, but that doesn&#039;t mean you own the expression within it, and you have no right to share duplicates with others.  The copyright holder owns the expression.  This is the essence of copyright law, and few authors would bother to publish anything without that protection.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Information itself is not protected by copyright, so that isn't the issue.  </p>
<p>Books represent the tangible expression of thought, which is subject to copyright protection.  Anti-copyright advocates often confuse information with expression.  Is a biography of John Adams merely information?  No, it is the author's creative interpretation of information.  </p>
<p>Nobody should own information.  But it is bad to duplicate expression without license, because the person doing the duplicating didn't create it and doesn't own it.  </p>
<p>If you have bought a book, you have purchased a licensed duplicate, but that doesn't mean you own the expression within it, and you have no right to share duplicates with others.  The copyright holder owns the expression.  This is the essence of copyright law, and few authors would bother to publish anything without that protection.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Carpenter</title>
		<link>http://www.movingtofreedom.org/2007/06/24/google-book-search-university-library-deal/comment-page-1/#comment-2687</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Carpenter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jun 2007 10:24:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.movingtofreedom.org/2007/06/24/google-book-search-university-library-deal/#comment-2687</guid>
		<description>Of course no one is proposing locking up books in libraries.  But they are proposing locking down information.

A library offers access to books.  Anyone can walk in and read a book.  A web page can similarly offer access to books.  Why is it bad to let people access the information online rather than in the physical building of a library?  The &quot;problem&quot; we have now is the easy duplication of books.  Is it only good to have open access if it&#039;s difficult to get to and use?

Speaking of straw men, if we confiscated all personal computers, their owners would no longer have the use of them.  Google&#039;s copy of a book doesn&#039;t deprive the owner of that book  his or her use of it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course no one is proposing locking up books in libraries.  But they are proposing locking down information.</p>
<p>A library offers access to books.  Anyone can walk in and read a book.  A web page can similarly offer access to books.  Why is it bad to let people access the information online rather than in the physical building of a library?  The "problem" we have now is the easy duplication of books.  Is it only good to have open access if it's difficult to get to and use?</p>
<p>Speaking of straw men, if we confiscated all personal computers, their owners would no longer have the use of them.  Google's copy of a book doesn't deprive the owner of that book  his or her use of it.</p>
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		<title>By: My post copyrighted</title>
		<link>http://www.movingtofreedom.org/2007/06/24/google-book-search-university-library-deal/comment-page-1/#comment-2683</link>
		<dc:creator>My post copyrighted</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jun 2007 06:21:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.movingtofreedom.org/2007/06/24/google-book-search-university-library-deal/#comment-2683</guid>
		<description>The point is that there are no agreements between publishers/authors and Google for the 9 percent in copyright and in print or for the 75 percent out of print.  That&#039;s what makes the scanning illegal.  Nobody proposes locking up libraries -- that&#039;s a straw man.  

There would also be a great public benefit to confiscating all personal computers in the country and distributing them to the poor.  Any volunteers?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The point is that there are no agreements between publishers/authors and Google for the 9 percent in copyright and in print or for the 75 percent out of print.  That's what makes the scanning illegal.  Nobody proposes locking up libraries -- that's a straw man.  </p>
<p>There would also be a great public benefit to confiscating all personal computers in the country and distributing them to the poor.  Any volunteers?</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Carpenter</title>
		<link>http://www.movingtofreedom.org/2007/06/24/google-book-search-university-library-deal/comment-page-1/#comment-2680</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Carpenter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jun 2007 20:45:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.movingtofreedom.org/2007/06/24/google-book-search-university-library-deal/#comment-2680</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;Nobody:&lt;/b&gt;  Gah!  Looks like Lessig had his site updated and the permalinks are all messed up.

Both links above are broken, and are now:

[redacted -- they switched back again -- I picked a bad day to link to lessig.org posts!]

Will get these updated and look for some other broken ones.

&lt;b&gt;Mario:&lt;/b&gt;  I thought I heard at one time that they would make the public domain works available in their entirety.

I think what they are doing is different from mining, forestry and fishing in that this is a digital commons, so their use of the material doesn&#039;t consume it and prevent others from using it also.  (Leaving out the wear-and-tear they may cause while scanning.)  Sure they&#039;re a corporation looking to make a buck, but I think it&#039;s still a public benefit.

However, I agree that the information should be free as in freedom, and not just speech.  But if our government isn&#039;t going to work on that project, I&#039;m happy that *someone* is for now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Nobody:</b>  Gah!  Looks like Lessig had his site updated and the permalinks are all messed up.</p>
<p>Both links above are broken, and are now:</p>
<p>[redacted -- they switched back again -- I picked a bad day to link to lessig.org posts!]</p>
<p>Will get these updated and look for some other broken ones.</p>
<p><b>Mario:</b>  I thought I heard at one time that they would make the public domain works available in their entirety.</p>
<p>I think what they are doing is different from mining, forestry and fishing in that this is a digital commons, so their use of the material doesn't consume it and prevent others from using it also.  (Leaving out the wear-and-tear they may cause while scanning.)  Sure they're a corporation looking to make a buck, but I think it's still a public benefit.</p>
<p>However, I agree that the information should be free as in freedom, and not just speech.  But if our government isn't going to work on that project, I'm happy that *someone* is for now.</p>
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		<title>By: Nobody</title>
		<link>http://www.movingtofreedom.org/2007/06/24/google-book-search-university-library-deal/comment-page-1/#comment-2679</link>
		<dc:creator>Nobody</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jun 2007 19:47:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.movingtofreedom.org/2007/06/24/google-book-search-university-library-deal/#comment-2679</guid>
		<description>The link titled &quot;Let’s hope for success for Mr. Lessig in his new pursuit.&quot; is a big fat 404. Which is damned odd, since the link is new and any URL with /blog/archives/ as a substring is supposed to last forever.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The link titled "Let’s hope for success for Mr. Lessig in his new pursuit." is a big fat 404. Which is damned odd, since the link is new and any URL with /blog/archives/ as a substring is supposed to last forever.</p>
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		<title>By: Mario Stargard</title>
		<link>http://www.movingtofreedom.org/2007/06/24/google-book-search-university-library-deal/comment-page-1/#comment-2676</link>
		<dc:creator>Mario Stargard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jun 2007 16:45:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.movingtofreedom.org/2007/06/24/google-book-search-university-library-deal/#comment-2676</guid>
		<description>Making information available is a good thing.  How about how the information was made available?  If Google doesn&#039;t open its processes and share its own intellectual property, how is it any different from any other corporation looking to make a buck off a public commons?  How is this any different from selling bottled water, or mining, forestry, fishing and so on?  Google&#039;s methods are tightly guarded, making this sort of activity no different than the hoarding any company does.

Google is looking to make these books free as in beer, which is inarguably a valuable service, but it&#039;s not a public benefit until the information is truly free.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Making information available is a good thing.  How about how the information was made available?  If Google doesn't open its processes and share its own intellectual property, how is it any different from any other corporation looking to make a buck off a public commons?  How is this any different from selling bottled water, or mining, forestry, fishing and so on?  Google's methods are tightly guarded, making this sort of activity no different than the hoarding any company does.</p>
<p>Google is looking to make these books free as in beer, which is inarguably a valuable service, but it's not a public benefit until the information is truly free.</p>
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